Cole Chance - The Power of Yoga & Community for Trauma Healing & Addiction Recovery

Episode 34: Cole Chance - The Power of Yoga & Community in Trauma Healing & Addiction Recovery

Full Unedited Transcript:

Jeremy: All right, so welcome ladies and gentlemen to another episode of Unhooked. I am so excited to have my dear friend Cole Chance on um, Cole. You know, when I started this podcast, you were actually one of the first people I thought of, of when I was thinking of bringing people on. Um, Because I know that we're just gonna geek out on everything.

Addiction and recovery and, and Buddhism and yoga and all the good stuff. Um, so first of all, I just wanna say thank you for coming on the podcast. It's really a pleasure to have you here. 

Cole: Absolutely. Looking forward 

Jeremy: to it. Yeah. So I would love to just kind of jump straight into the deep end, the juicy deep end.

Mm-hmm. Um, and just hear a little bit about, you know, where did your story with addiction begin. Um, Where 

Cole: it began, um, let's see where it began. In the middle America, in Oklahoma. I was born and raised in Oklahoma. And um, I guess in a nutshell here, I feel like I was, I was an only child as pretty extroverted, introverted parents.

I, um, read a lot. I played sports, but pretty happy. Yeah, pretty happy childhood. I don't remember a lot of it, but it was like, it was, I mean, it was pretty, it was pretty good. And um, I always remember feeling like pretty confident, nothing like too much to report, I guess. And then in like seventh grade, There were all these like little first through sixth grades.

That's kind of how the elementary schools went in the States. And then in seventh grade, all of these schools came together and all of a sudden there was like 507th graders in one class. And this probably correlates with hormones happening and dah, dah, dah. And I just remember like all for the, for the first time ever, I remember feeling like I could see hierarchy.

It's like all of a sudden I could see that there were cool kids and they were not cool kids, and they were like the goths and the punks and the preps and the dah, dah, dah, dah da. And I just, it's like the par, my paradigm just really shifted and I didn't really know how to to deal with it, but I knew like I wanted to be part of this group, not part of this group.

It's like I had to start thinking and seeing the world in a different way. I just still remember walking down the halls of seventh grade. I just, I, I got anxiety and I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know what anxiety was. I just knew that like, all of a sudden it didn't feel, I didn't feel, uh, like myself.

So some people I could easily talk to. Some people, like I would want to talk to the cool kids I would want to talk to, and like literally nothing would come out of my mouth. Then I would hate myself for it. And the only thing I wanna do is like the next day is like say something and like it was a big deal.

I mean, it feels so silly to to say that now, but it was such a big deal. It was like debilitating. And um, I remember then kind of around this time casually trying, um, some pot. Which was fun. But then one night we tried a little bit of booze and this was like my life turned into technicolor and I didn't know that it had been black and white.

Mm-hmm. So there was a difference in it, just like relieving some of the anxiety. All of a sudden it was like I, all of a sudden I'm, I started to live. Mm-hmm. And. I felt like I filled myself out. I filled my skin out like I was bigger than myself. I was like bigger than me and like I could say what I wanted to say.

I could express myself. I was funny. I was like, no inhibitions and everything was just like lock and key. And I remember laying in my friend's pool just so clear. We had like an inner tube and uh, I was in an inner tube and I had my legs crossed and I was like swirling my legs. And when you do this in an inner tube, you just spin.

And I was looking up at the stars spinning in this inner tube and I told myself like, fuck, I'm gonna do this forever. 

Jeremy: This is the solution. Like this 

Cole: is this. Oh my God. Like what is everybody in the world doing? I spent like a long mini year whole, like a long time later being like, what is everybody? Why is everybody not just, why are we not all partying the whole time?

So anyway, I just attested that I was going to do this forever, and that's what I tried. Mm. So that was the very, that was the very beginning is I think that it filled a hole in some, probably possibly normal social anxiety. I don't know. I wasn't talking about it with anyone. I wanted to talk about it too.

Jeremy: Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. And then, um, so I was on my way, so. Like that. Anything, it, it was just like, well, whose brother's gonna get us booze? Like let's start exploring this. Like, oh my god, like kid in a candy shop. Like, I just was so excited. And then, um, so I started drinking here and as much as we could here and there, testing it out.

And then I got a cool older boyfriend, so I was about, 14, probably got a pool older boyfriend and, um, started sneaking outta the house and like they had a keg at their house. They lived on the wrong side of town. Um, I was in Christian, Oklahoma. He was a black boy that literally lived on the other side of the train tracks.

Mm-hmm. Like, and, uh, one night we just, we had sex. Um, down like the dirt road from my house. And I just remember the adrenaline of sneaking outta the house too. I have to mention that, like how much adrenaline I could still imagine this house. And imagine like the route that I would take and like turn on this van, turn on the air condition, all these little things that make a little bit of noise and like my whole route, the whole, I can still remember that.

So it was very exciting. And then he'd page me, oh, so exciting. But anyway. We have sex and I got pregnant the first fucking time we had sex. Wow. 14. 

Jeremy: Wow. 

Cole: By black, by black. Older boy in Christian seg. Like pretty segregated, pretty racist. Oklahoma. Um, so boom, there was the, Big trauma, whole school finds out, so remember this school that I'm very concerned about being cool in.

All of a sudden I am teen pregnant and then I just kind of black out I think for a little bit. Mm-hmm.

I had, I was recently in a holotropic breath work session and I had this vision in my session. Of this shock. And the shock was of me realizing that I was pregnant. Hmm. And I remember this big, I didn't know exactly what it was when it was happening in the session, but it was just like all of a sudden it was all of a sudden like this, like, oh my God.

It was just like choking me.

And then there was this sense of rage. And I was able to identify that there was a part of me that sensed that I was, you know, this little girl, like, oh my God. Okay. First shock. And then there was a part of me that was like, protect her. And in my vision, this like came, this is sounds like woo woo, but from in breath work, like I had this sense of like a ta, like a, it was like a Puma or a Jaguar or something.

Anyway, what it was was the birth of my anger came alive out of a protection for this, this part of me, this like this, uh, this part of me that was just like, get all the weapons you can, we're going to war. And I just like, Talons went out in me in real life from that point. Mm-hmm. And I was like, get away from me.

Walk off like I hated everybody all of a sudden. Mm-hmm. And um, and I was like, oh, I'm bad. I'll show you bad, I'll show you that. And, but in this recent birth work session, I felt the impetus or like the, the beginning of that, um, the birth of that rage and anger. Which really fueled a lot of my addiction.

It's pretty interesting. Yeah. 

Jeremy: Wow. Hmm. What happened next? 

Cole: So, after that, you know, and essentially what happened, probably when I, when that rage came out is that I couldn't, I was 14. I couldn't process shit and I couldn't process shame. The shame that came along with it, and the shame was too much to swallow.

So I got mad. Yeah. And I decided I was gonna hate my mom. I was not gonna ever, like, I couldn't look them in the eyes. I couldn't even look them in the eyes because I was shameful. But I just acted. Its cuz I hated them. Right, right, right. And they, we, I had abortion. My dad took me very against, my mom couldn't stomach it.

Mm. And there was protesters everywhere. Picketing fences. Wow. Yeah. It was intense. And I kind of had to shut 

Jeremy: off. Yeah. Very traumatic experience at 14. Wow. 

Cole: Yeah. And then we moved, they moved, we moved states, we moved to Missouri. So then it's of course, you know, I absorbed that my parents are embarrassed of me when probably they're trying to give me a fresh start, you know, like, mm-hmm.

Um, so then immediately, you know, we get to this new school and you know, Just, just to say I was already going to be an alcoholic. Like I like, it's interesting because it wasn't that, but I was already like, I'm gonna do this forever. And then that came in and then it was like, we're rolling right? Right. In this now.

But whenever we got, Ooh. Greater. Cool. Cool. I'm starting doing bird watching, so I'm just, I'm identifying this bird that just flew by. 

Jeremy: Very excited for those of you listening at home. So, just to give some backstory, Cole is, is in Bali, sitting in UD in the most magical place in the world on a, on a deck overlooking some jungle and probably has seen.

The most rare bird in the world just fly by. So, um, pretty exciting. 

Cole: Just to give some context, I only recently, only recently know what it's called, so that's very exciting 

Jeremy: from it. Right, right. So you're geeking out 

on 

Cole: bird watching. Just to anyone who's listening, like you might think you'll never fill the hole, but you'll, and 

Jeremy: I mean so long story, story addiction sucks, but it gets better.

Cole: Yeah. Yeah. You get your kicks with birdwatching one day. No, just, just kidding. I'm kidding. You may. But yeah. Anyway. 

Jeremy: Um, So the, the kind of the alcohol had, you had experienced it, this magical elixir of life that solved all your problems and then mm-hmm. You started dealing with trauma, anger, rage, uh, isolation, all the emotions you didn't know how to deal with.

Yeah. And so alcohol was kind of the obvious solution for 

Cole: that. Oh, it was excellent. It was a great idea. Yeah, it was a great idea. And you know, How we can like sniff each other out some way. Like somehow you just know. So I move to this new school and immediately find the party kids and immediately I'm sneak outta the house and, you know, getting stuff at school, da, da da da, da.

So the whole thing goes down there and then we have to move again. You know, because I've, you know, created, caused havoc here. I ended up going to like my first little rehab there, which was, um, actually like I. Pretty cool. When I look back at it, it's like a wilderness rehab. It was called Seuss. It's when they take you out into the middle of nowhere and they make you learn all these survival skills and like hike around.

Mm-hmm. And like learn how to like build a fire with sticks and all of this stuff. I hated it, but in hindsight, like, you know, really I wish I was into it when I was there. Yeah. But that was like the first time that they, you know, parents kinda shipped me off. They know what to do with me. And then they sent me to another place where my dad's best friend was the principal, which ended up being this place called Lake of the Ozarks in Missouri.

I don't know, some people may know what that is. And it's essentially notorious party town. And my parents are like so naive, they have no clue. Hmm. There I find, um, I had been drinking pot acid, uh, mushrooms more like that. But then now I move here and there's, uh, lots of money. So. Lots of older men, uh, cocaine and ecstasy.

So these are very exciting things. Mm. So then it gets, it blows up even more. Mm-hmm. I move outta the house, da, da da, da, da. Start dating dealers. So you can just imagine how this goes. So it just really revved up very quick and my tolerance was very high, very quick. Yeah. Because I decide that, um, I strategize and decide like I'm very young.

And I'm proving myself, you know, looking back on this whole thing, it's always so much about belonging and I'm wanting to still belong like I was. Mm. And I'm to belong in these scenes, these big party scenes, older people, money. I needed to. Have a high tolerance and I needed to, you know, appear a certain way and I really, um, prided myself in the amount of drugs and alcohol that I could consume and stick with it.

Mm-hmm. Which is hard on the body. Yeah. And it requires maintenance. What do you mean? When a tolerance gets very high, then I have to continue to feed it, or else a withdrawal begins to come so very quickly. I see what you mean. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the more that I, my body becomes used to having a certain amount of substance in it, I have to keep feeding that substance.

Right? 

Jeremy: Mm-hmm. So it sounds like kind of a, a very quick downward spiral that you were finding yourself in. 

Cole: Yeah. Yeah, so I was a daily, I mean, I was a daily drinker from quite young. Mm-hmm. And I was a morning drinker quite young, which also felt when I realized that I could choose to drink in the mornings.

So, It felt like another like golden ticket moment, like the one when I first drank ever, like many years, several years ago. 

Jeremy: Epiphany moment, like, oh my God, I can do this in the morning too. This is amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just for context, how old were you at this time? This was like early twenties or.

Cole: Yeah, I was probably, uh, when, this was probably like 18, 19, whenever I had been at, okay. When I'm living at this place. Then I spend the next many years moving to Resort Town. So I live ski resort in Vail or Steamboat or somewhere in the winter. And then I do a summer resort in the summer, so I get to move geographical locations a lot.

Mm-hmm. And I'm in party rooms all the time, so everything's really normalized. Bloody Mary's in the morning. Uh, you know, beers on the ski lift, like not a big deal. Um, so I got to hide in that manner a lot. Mm-hmm. And it wa didn't stand out as much so. And it, they're party towns and we just partied hard.

Mm-hmm. But I was still, you know, drinking, starting, you know, to drink in the morning. I started shaking in the mornings and I started feeling kind of depressed and I was like, what could this be? I'm gonna stop drinking coffee. I get up coffee. I gave up coffee at one point, and then I was like, I wanna put some vodka in my orange juice.

And this was like the first time that I didn't do it. Like with other people, you know, normally it's like, who wants a beer or Who wants Bloody Mary? Mm-hmm. But then I start kind of hiding it from my partner who is like an alcoholic too, you know? That's when you know that there's a problem. You're like hiding it from people who are like massive drinkers.

And then I just didn't shake anymore and I actually felt great. So anytime, you know, I wake up in the morning and there would be the hangover or withdrawal starting. I just realized, oh, I just popped this in. Here we go again. So I could run with that for a really long 

Jeremy: time. So it was just kind of a constant state of drunkenness almost.

Like you just kind of needed to keep Yeah. Filling it. Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. And I bartended as I got older, I bartended and I always worked in, um, in bars. So, So I could drink at work. I could add kegs and jager machines at home. Like, I mean, it was all the time everywhere. And because my tolerance was so high, I wasn't like sloppy.

I could be talking to you like I would be, I would be wasted right now. But talking to you like this mm-hmm. Because I practiced it so much. 

Jeremy: Mm-hmm. Just living life and kind of a gray fuzz of, of drunkenness, but not, yeah, not sloppiness. What were. Did you have like a rock bottom moment where the shit hit the fan or where you kind of had a wake up call?

Cole: Yeah, I actually, I actually had many, I would have many kind of rock bottoms and I would end up in treatment. Mm-hmm. Normally, like I would finally raise a flag. Somebody would come on a rescue mission across the country to pick me up. My family would send me to expensive rehabs. So several times that had happened.

Um, But I never, like, wanted to get sober. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I didn't want to get sober. I wanted to find, first, I wanted to feel better. I wanted to stop the pain. I knew they were gonna give me drugs, benzos, to stop it. But then as soon as I started feeling better, I started to strategize again of like, how can I do this right.

How can I, you know, drink. Right. Be like a normal drinker. Inevitably that would not work and it would crash and burn again. And then something dramatic and colorful would happen and I would be in jail, or I would have a seizure at my grandmother's funeral, or I would have, that's a real story. That's a real story.

Yeah. Had a seizure from withdrawing. 

Jeremy: Wow. I. 

Cole: Not good. Yeah. And talking about denial, which is something I like to talk about a lot in my story, but like, like see that that episode of having the seizure was normally a seizure will happen about three days out from drinking. If you stop or severely reduce the amount of alcohol you're putting in your system, then you can get a grand mal seizure.

And I had it that day. And so I was in the hospital for about a week. It was bad. It was a really bad one. Mm-hmm. Uh, I don't remember it, but anyway. Everybody knew that I was an alcoholic. I'd already been out of re in and outta rehabs a lot, but, um, in the hospital, the doctor, you know, they're telling me it's, you know, it's alcohol and like I look up on Google and I find where it says like 0.001% of people have grandma seizures due to stress.

And I'm like, my grandmother just died. Get off my back. You know? Mm-hmm. 

Jeremy: So you were very, uh, cunning and kind of, uh, you were smart about it. You, you found ways to deceive yourself and, and stay in denial. Yeah, 

Cole: yeah. Yeah. Lots of that, lots of that. Um, in the very end, I mean, the story just looped and it, there were, there were many, many severe, very severe, bad rock bottoms, I would say.

But I was stubborn, more stubborn than most. More stubborn than most. And the very end. The last one though, um, I had recently checked myself out of detox with this handsome Lebanese heroin addict, and we went on like a three month vendor in Austin where I started shooting heroin, which was new. I'd done it in many other ways, but I hadn't, I hadn't shot it, and that took me pretty quick.

And we were shooting, um, like cocaine and heroin speedballs, and I was like hanging out at this crack house compound in Austin, Texas. I remember, I'll share this just because I think it's kind of powerful. When I first started doing. All of this. It was quite glamorous. I think I mentioned that town with like the cocaine and the ecstasy.

And there's yachts and there's parties. Mm-hmm. And it's like clubs and it's, I'm young and beautiful and like it was this exuberance that I loved. Like I still, today when I look back and I'm not being super honest with myself, I'll have nostalgia of myself like, ha ha. Like my leg kicked back a champagne glass, my pinky out.

It's like this, like flapper. I'm just fabulous darling. And like, God, it's such a lie, but that was there. Mm-hmm. But the next day I'd be like shaking and vomiting and you know, mm. Doing searching through, doing anything I could do to get a little bit more of whatever it is I needed. But this glamor as I wanted so mad.

And in the end, I'm at this crack house on the bad side of town with some. Rough stuff going on. Mm-hmm. There's a bunch of kids running around. There's prostitution coming in and out. There's just some racket going on. Mm-hmm. And um, I was laying on this bed next to this girl who was very young and everybody was waiting for someone to get back with all of this, whatever it is that we were getting.

And, um, it was just a hectic scene. And I remember looking up, laying on this bed next to this young girl and there was like a mirror on the ceiling. And I'm laying next to her. She looked like she was probably 15 or 16, and I just like all of a sudden was like, what the fuck? Mm. And just thinking about her, this being about the same age, you know, I was a bit younger than her and just thinking like I have came so far, like, so far from this glamor and um,

You know, people arguing like a boyfriend, arguing with his girlfriend to go have sex with somebody so they can get some more like, ugh, while they're bouncing the baby on the knee. Like, I don't know, it was just like such a scene. Mm. I needed that thick scene. Yeah. And um, Not long after this, somewhere around in that fuzz, in that haze, I had an overdose or a stroke or I don't know really what happened, but I remember I was standing and I.

We, I, I had a, a speed ball and my knees just crumpled. And I do remember my knees crumpling, and I was saying, there's something wrong. There's something wrong. But my words were coming out like,

mm. And then I just, I was out and I came back too. I don't know how much longer and everyone was gone. I'd just been left there and, um,

I. Hitchhiked to the other end of Austin, which was very, very challenging because I had just like electrocuted my brain. And I remember trying to get across I 35, which was like the bus is like the busiest highway there, and it was like in August in Austin, and I couldn't turn my poor head because I had just like electrocuted myself.

So I'd have to like turn my whole body like to see who was coming and then like turn back around and try to like frog across it like it was. Debilitating. Mm-hmm. Somehow I make it back to this room that I was renting from, like some old crabby Mexican man. I don't know how I ever found this room or what I was doing, and it was across from a liquor store.

And what I normally do when I hit a bottom, so this is maybe not a bottom, this is like, yeah, it's a bottom, um, is I went and bought a bunch of booze with whatever money I had left, and I had some pills. And I was gonna go and I was gonna, it was gonna take me a while if I knew it was gonna take me a few days of just nursing myself back.

And that's how I was gonna nurse my, that's how I took care of myself was with alcohol and pills and, um, nothing was happening. And I would take some more pills and drink some more. And like nothing was happening. Like there was no relief that was happening. Mm. And I started. Freaking out at this point. I had already cut ties with, oh, no one would talk to me anymore.

I've lied to all my friends. I'd been kicked outta my sober living place. I had broke out of detox with lover like parents had long stopped talking to me. Um, and I called that sober living place that I lived at. I had made, you know, I was kind of friends with the, with the owner, but I got kicked out of there cuz I had hidden alcohol all over the place and people were trying to get sober and I was like hiding shit everywhere.

Hmm. But I called her and I said, please, please, I don't have any money. Like I, I need help. I need help. And there was one in all of Austin. There's one sober living house that takes people that are high risk, which means sober living normally only takes people out of rehab. They normally just don't take someone off the street.

And so they were the only house that did that. And they only had one room that they gave away for free. And they had no reason to give it to me cuz they had just kicked me out for like driving on their, driving up on their lawn with my car, like hammered and they let me back in. And she said it was because you've never asked for help anymore.

You're like, you are notorious for never saying that there's a problem.

And I had to wait like three days I think. They said, come on a Wednesday. And I showed up on a Tuesday night and I said, I will sleep on your couch. That always gives, like, gives me butterflies, it gives me goosebumps. And she just opened the door and moved out of the way and I walked in and it was like, mm.

And in that, Shitty little sober living place. Like I fucking stopped. That was the end of it. Mm-hmm. I don't think I could have done it without it actually. I didn't end up getting sober out of rehab. I ended up de detoxing myself in, um, this little spot in West Austin, south Austin. And I think there's something to do with, I was in there with other people who didn't wanna be there either, but we were in there together and you know, I haven't thought about this before, but like it wasn't what I wanted, but I belonged there.

So. Mm. 

Jeremy: What made the difference? Like there's this, you know, the, you mentioned the denial earlier, and it's a common theme in recovery that you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Mm-hmm. But it sounds like something shifted this time where you were ready for it. And I'm just curious, what was it that changed on this one?

Cole: This one, I think I actually realized that I was going to die. And this had happened for a while, that everybody had been telling me like, you're going, you're going to die. Like I was going to the hospital with like blowing like fives and shit where it was like the doctors were saying, the only reason you're alive is cuz you're an alcoholic.

Like you, you're tolerance actually is keeping you alive. Like I would, people would be dead. I was in risky situations all the time. My parents. They stopped talking to me, cuz every time the phone rang they were just like, this is it. This is the last one. And I just didn't believe in anyone. I just thought everyone like get chill out.

Like, I actually just didn't believe anyone that everyone's like this. You were so advanced with whatever reason there was for it, whether it be a doctor or whether it be, you know, whatever. I just thought that everyone was over exaggerating and so I needed this. That had never happened to me before and I scare, it scared me.

Mm. Whether again, I don't, not sure stroke, overdose, what it was, but it scared me and, oh, I didn't tell this part of the story. The, um, it not working. Whenever I was, I was trying to, I was trying to drink and it wasn't working. This is what changed. This is what it was, is that I remember in AA rooms, which I was in and out forever cause I was always court ordered or rehab ordered or something.

So, And those little cliches that they always say, one thing that they say is that one day it's not gonna work anymore. And I heard that one day it's not gonna work anymore. And I was like, one day it's not gonna work anymore. And you know, I think what they mean by that is like one day, like the bullshit's not gonna work anymore.

Your solution's not gonna work anymore. But I literally thought at that moment, like, one day it's not gonna work anymore. Like you're gonna drink and you're not gonna get, it's not gonna do what you want it to do, which is true, but probably what happened is because I had, there was a, I just had a stroke or something and booze wasn't bringing me down the way that it normally did.

For whatever reason. It wasn't working the way I wanted it to work. And I was like, yeah, oh my God, this, I've reached the point to where it doesn't work anymore. And this is the only thing I knew, like, if this doesn't work, I'm fucked. Hmm. And another thing came to my mind, and this is, I had been to a rehab recently where I had just asked like a tech, I was just talking with somebody who I kind of connected with, and I wasn't planning on getting sober, but I was just asking her.

I'm like, seriously though? Like, how did you do it? Like, It didn't, couldn't even confuse. I couldn't even begin to imagine anyone wanting to, for one, much less like actually doing it. And she just goes, baby, one day you're gonna realize that you can be high or you can be happy, and that the two may have used to go together and they're not gonna go together anymore and they can be.

And that came into my head too, in that shitty little room. I was like sweating up a storm in this bed. That came into mind too. You can be higher, you can be happy. And I was just like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. Mm-hmm. And that's when I made the phone call. 

Jeremy: Yeah. Wow. Wow. 

Cole: So while I do believe that you cannot.

Burst the bubble of somebody in denial. I was talking this about someone the other day. It's like somebody's in the denials. Like they're, they're in this bubble. And sometimes often the bubble's really thick and you're just fucking wasting your, wasting your breath. And sometimes the bubble gets thinner and they can hear a little bit more.

Mm-hmm. And it's like, Sometimes we're in the bubble, sometimes other people are in the bubble, like, but that at that moment, my bubble was very, very thin and something that had been told to me before that someone didn't think it was a waste of words, came back. Mm. And I heard it. 

Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sometimes you hear those, those things that have been said when you're not in a receptive state, but you, you remember it and it comes back to you when you actually can hear it. Yeah. I love that your story. It. It's like all these little moments that are chipping away at the kind of the statue that you have of this is, yeah, this is gonna work forever.

I can just keep drinking my problems away. And you have these little snippets. These, you know what really struck me is that moment where you're in. The crack house, kind of like laying next to this girl, looking at, you know, the two of you on the mirror and just that, the visual aspect of that, of seeing this younger girl and seeing how far you've fallen.

Mm-hmm. And just how kind of stark that can be of a wake up call. Um, 

Cole: yeah. Yeah. I was 29. I was 29 at that time. And yeah, that moment was, uh, that moment was quite, was quite pivotal. Especially when you're in the depths of it, which I was a lot of times it was very blurry. Mm-hmm. Very blurry to like, that was a moment of like real thin bubble.

Yeah. Real thin bubble. And I was like, and moments like that make you wanna make the bubble thicker. As well. Yeah. And that's an issue with denial is that it, it loops and then sometimes you see a little bit and you're like, I'm not ready for that. Right. Cause many times in my life, you know that it ebbs and flows.

Sometimes I'm like, oh no, I'm in trouble. And then I just didn't wanna deal with that, so I would drink it away. 

Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. The pain of seeing the reality of your situation just makes you want to act out more to escape the pain of seeing that. Yeah. Wow. So, okay. I want to shift into kind of, you know, uh, it's like the hero's journey.

It's like, okay, you went through this horrible thing and then you got to, to rehab and you were finally ready for it. Mm-hmm. Um, what, you know, what, what are the components of recovery to you? Like, what is it that actually helped. Once you, once you were ready for it, and once you kind of checked in and you're like, okay, I'm here.

What were the things that allowed you to build a foundation of recovery? 

Cole: So I actually didn't go to rehab in the end. I went to a sober living. Oh, right, okay. Rehab. Actually, I wouldn't let me back in. They said she's been, I'd been like eight times. Mm-hmm. I actually tried to get into a rehab and they wouldn't take me.

They said there's nothing we can do for her. I was, I was, mm-hmm. I had had that reputation. Um, so sober living rehab is great. Like I, if somebody is ready and they go to rehab, it's great, but I actually didn't, I actually didn't get sober in rehab. Um, so sober living. One, I think community is, I couldn't have done it if I was just written in an apartment by myself.

Mm-hmm. Like I needed to know that there wasn't booze in there. I needed to not be able to just walk out and go to the store and get some booze. I needed to have a breathalyzer, I needed to have all of that. Um, I. Was untrustworthy to myself. Like I needed all of those boundaries. And I think that that like kind of fierce compassion in that way was like I needed to stand up to myself for myself, and I actually couldn't do that alone.

Jeremy: So it's kind of the accountability of the community, like holding you to those standards? Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. So I really, really needed that and I'm really pro so sober living, if you can find a good, if you can find a proper spot, cuz there's a lot of problems with them, which are their side note. Um, so that was really powerful.

And just the community in general, like I was going to AA in the beginning I found, uh, the Austin Zen Center, which had refuge recovery meetings, which was more my style. But also was going to aa and um, that was just important to be able to sit in a room with somebody and to share yourself without them being like, what the fuck?

Because I could say things that I couldn't say to normal people. There's stuff that's said in AA rooms or in recovery rooms that you just can't, like say to your average person. People would be like, what? This is a horrible, but you can say it. And people are just like, yep.

Like, yeah, that is a salve and a tonic for humans. A hundred percent. We just, that's the, 

Jeremy: it's again, totally one of the things that I see. You know, so this podcast is all about porn addiction, and one of the most healing things for so many men is just understanding that there are other people out there.

Mm-hmm. Addiction and particularly some of the kind of the sexual addictions, porn addiction being one of them, it's so isolating. You feel like you're the only one, and you feel like you are a monster in a sea of normal people. Mm-hmm. And that no one would understand. And when you finally get people coming together and saying, yeah, I'm struggling with this, and you can just see.

The relief coming onto people's faces when they recognize that they're not alone. And that kind of common humanity of recognizing you're not broken, you're not a monster, you're not alone. Um, I, I genuinely think it's one of the most important steps Yeah. In recovery. 

Cole: Yeah, absolutely. I absolutely, absolutely agree.

And I run recovery programs now and it's kind of cool. I would love to do them. More in person, but when I get to do 'em on Zoom, I can see everybody's faces, you know, like at the same time. Yeah. And I'll hear one person talking and I can watch other people's faces and they're like, and not in like a, oh my God, they're like, they're speaking my story out of their mouth, you know?

Yeah. And then everyone always goes, I had no idea. I had no idea. And it's, it's alchemy like truly to be able to feel like. I mean, that's, that's the magic. I mean, that really is, that's, that's the medicine. The other stuff come around and support it, but that's what it is. It, it's reframing and reshaping the stories that we tell about ourselves.

The B lies. Mm-hmm. That we believe about ourselves. Whenever we see ourselves in other people. Whenever that it pulls that thread, it calls bullshit. You know, if someone says, Hey, me too, then you can't believe your bullshit anymore, that you're the only person. 

Jeremy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Cole: So just powerful. Powerful. Yeah.

Yeah. And another really big component for me was speaking because I was, um, I started to go to yoga. Crazy. I, in one of the many rehabs that I went to, I took yoga for the first time and I knew right then yoga, and she taught a lot with a Buddhist, ben, and she was a heroin addict. And I remember. I remember it was this, this was in Santa Cruz, I remember.

Oh, no 

Jeremy: way. Beautiful. I'm actually from Santa 

Cole: Cruz. Are you okay? Yeah. Used to I lived, yeah, I lived there for a couple years at one point. Oh, okay. Um, and very fuzzy couple years, very fuzzy. Couple years. Um, So I went to a rehab called the Camp, which is outta Santa Cruz a little bit, and they had this beautiful like greenhouse that they, we did yoga in and I remember that I got there and I was detoxing and like my room wasn't ready yet.

So they like, let me go and lay on my yoga mat in this. Shouldn't have. I wasn't supposed to be in there really yet. So I'm in there and I'm like sweating and shaking and I can smell myself. It was horrible. And I'm in this gorgeous place and um, it's like the birds are chirping and they're like cartoon birds.

Like everything is so beautiful. I just remember how beautiful everything was while I was like horrible. And this teacher like had an angel's voice and she was talking about, I don't know what she was talking about. So, Beautiful something. And she was like, I'm a, you know, a recovering heroin addict. And I remember being like looking at her like I was trying to like, and I was like, bullshit.

Like I didn't believe her. But anyway, throughout this whole program, um, She was really, that was the first time I'd ever done yoga. And I remember like looking into Buddhism and like reading about like the eightfold path and I'm like, ah, you know, then reading somewhere I'm not supposed to drink and blah, blah da da da.

But I just remember being like, if I ever get sober, which I'm not, like both of those voices happen in my head if I ever get sober, but, but I'm not, then I'm gonna look into this yoga and Buddhism thing. Mm-hmm. But I like shelved that for like many years. I drank on the plane home, like I was out, out. Um, yeah.

But I always kept it, so I was kind of going to, kind of going to yoga, starting to dibble in, into like some different books and stuff, like PEMA books and um, or for show probably. Um, 

Jeremy: but when I finally, so you're starting to fill your backpack with like these little snippets of Yes. Wisdom that you could use later.

Yes. Yes. You weren't really using them, but they were, they were in your backpack and they were in my backpack. Maybe a few years later you kind of like, oh yeah, an eightfold path thing actually kinda, mm-hmm. Sounds helpful. 

Cole: Yeah. And I started very slowly, if I was like, you know, a little bit above line or even outline, I would like go to a yoga class.

Mm. You know, so I started kind of going to yoga when I could. Sometimes it was long times in between. Sometimes it would, sometimes, you know, Here and there, I'd still be, you know, probably had a wine bottle in my bag or in my water bottle, like I always had wine in my Nalgene. Um, But I was like starting to go and I was starting to like watch how people lived.

I would, I remember listening to these two girls in like the changing room and they were like, do you wanna go get tea after class? And I was like, T date, ask someone for tea. 

Jeremy: Like an alien. Kind of like observing humans, like how do these people live? Like, oh, okay, T date, that's something I should try to mimic.

Cole: Absolutely. I felt like a total imposter. Total imposter. But uh, yeah, when I get sober, I, uh, Did took like a 30 days for $30 or something like that, and uh, just started to go into yoga every day. And it was just, it was so beneficial. And I remember sharing with my group that it was towards the end, I think, I don't, I don't know, I don't know where I shared this.

I can't remember now, but at some point I shared with people. That I was, uh, in recovery and that was the first time that I had shared that with anybody outside of like an AA meeting or something. And, um, it was like a really big move for me cuz I'd spent a lot of time lying about it and I would relapse just because somebody offered me a drink and I didn't want to.

I was like, uh uh. Okay. Like, I, I couldn't say no, I don't drink like it was mm-hmm. Wasn't vernacular. Um, so being able to share about it openly was, um, was massive. So, Mm, really massive and like to share it with my, I eventually take a yoga teacher training and I share it there and um, I just start to get a little bit more confident.

I was working at a restaurant, I shared it there and far from people being like, who's this freak that they started asking me questions and people started saying, Hey. You know, talking about them or talking about their partner and just the more I was able to share, the more empowered I became about being able to say, I don't drink.

Like I can do lots of things. Yeah. I just don't 

Jeremy: drink. Right. So that was really big. It's so interesting. I, you know, I, I feel such a resonance with this part of the story also. It, it took me so long to, Own up to having a porn addiction. Mm-hmm. You know, the, the thought of telling anyone that I even watched porn, let alone had, you know, kind of an addictive relationship with it was so, it was so shameful.

It was so embarrassing. It was like, I don't wanna talk about it. I just wanna like, shove it under the rug and, you know, lock my door and like, not let anyone see. And I remember the first time I told someone I. It was, um, uh, when I, when I was in grad school, it was another PhD student. And he and I were in like the Buddhist meditation club, and I don't know what it was, but I kind of told him, I was like, yeah, what got me into meditation was porn addiction.

And that was the first person I could ever tell. And that was even six years after I had gotten kind of sober from porn. Wow. So I wasn't even in my addiction anymore. But there was so much shame about it that it was, it was just so hard to open up and, and mm-hmm. Let people in. But what was interesting is just like you, the more that I've opened up about it, I mean, now it's nothing.

Now I can just say like, oh yeah, I used to be a porn addict. Um, and it's empowering because the thought is when you're in the addiction, you think if I tell somebody, they're gonna think I'm a monster. Mm-hmm. You know, they're gonna judge me, they're gonna all this stuff. And then you tell people and they're just like, oh yeah.

Wow. That must be really tough. And it's this, again, it's that mountain coming off where you're like, oh, okay, I'm not a monster, I'm not alone. Mm-hmm. Other people deal with this. Um, isn't that so? I love that aspect 

Cole: that other people feel this too, or other people feel this too. Like that's something that's just so powerful.

Um, yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting that you Yeah. For six years still held that. Yeah. For six years. Still held 

Jeremy: it. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It's big. So we've got community in terms of like the important aspects for your recovery community and then speaking about it. Yeah. Kinda being vulnerable, opening up about it.

Mm-hmm. And I know, you know, you yoga is a huge part of your recovery journey and I'd love to just hear a little bit more like, what is it about yoga that helps with recovery? 

Cole: Um, I think there's different components and I've always kind of been like, what is this magic spell? Like why is this working? And it's really, you know, I think that there's many components to it.

I think one, for me, especially when I was still using, uh, to, for me to gather my self and get to a yoga studio and unroll in that and to get on it, it's a pretty big deal. And I, um, Lived a very loud life. It was very chaotic. And then when I'm quiet with myself on a mat, it was like, it was me and me. It was like I wasn't hiding myself.

And I was lucky to have some really good teachers that would always be offering, it wasn't just like a fitness class. There was like, there's always be self inquiry and I'd always be like,

Jeremy: They're like, they're speaking just for me. They knew I needed to hear this message, 

Cole: which, you know, you, you think I would get the hint of like, oh, this is a human thing. Not like, oh yeah, how do they know? Um, anyway, yeah. So that was. That was big. Just being able to have a space where it was me and me and it wasn't like, oh, that felt good Sometimes it was like, fuck, I'm in so much trouble.

Fuck, I'm in so much trouble. And I would just like cry in child's pose. Yeah. And it was an hour that I wasn't drinking. Like honestly, hour by hour were, was big. Yeah. And then, um, but then farther along, I think that, you know, we create so much disconnection in our body, which is interesting in my case because I.

If you remember the beginning of my story, it's like I was after the connection. Like I felt disconnected. First. I felt disconnected before I started drinking. Drinking was like superwoman. Mm, like, like I was connected. And that was a lie. And it lasted for a while and then it just disintegrated and it went the other way.

And I was so disconnected to me. And I've always been pretty body based. Like I've always played sports. I was always very in my body, but. That had all went away. So just like right hand to your left leg, you know, it was like, whoa. Um, just really stop 

Jeremy: here. This is wild. Right hand and left leg. Whoa. I 

Cole: know.

That's cool in your body. Um, so just, just there. Just being able to connect and to, um, notice your breath. Never thought about that before. Hadn't thought about that before, like, oh, just little things. And um, yeah, the farther that I get away, not thinking that then, but the farther I get away and like learn more about the nervous system and trauma and all of this, is that I really think, I always did a vinyasa style of yoga, which is very, it's breath initiated movement and I think it was a breath.

I think a big component of the soothing aspect of me leaving class feeling calm is that I just spent an hour inhaling and exhaling at a steady pace. 

Jeremy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, we don't do that. Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. I hold my breath all the time now. I notice I'm like on my coffee, I'm answering my emails. I go into, I just go and get on my mat and practice, and I naturally inhale and exhale.

I inhale and I exhale and I inhale, and I exhale. It's like it sets my metronome. 

Jeremy: Yeah. That's a big, and it's like a nervous system reset. Mm-hmm. Just that kind of soothing Yeah, like regulating aspect of, of yoga and meditation. The fact that it kind of just. Calms your nervous system mm-hmm. And regulates you a little 

Cole: bit.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, I think it's the breath and, uh, Kochar one, one of the, you know, the old, old OG yogis used to say that, uh, you know, The asana is just decoration for the breath, and I really believe, mm, I really believe that. Wow. And it's just a way that we remember to inhale, lift your arms up, you inhale, put 'em down, you exhale, keep going.

You know? Yeah. It's like, yeah. The poses are great. It's fun. It's fun to feel physical and feel alive in your body. The endorphins, all of those, all of that is good, but your breath, your nervous system does not speak. Words, it speaks breath. 

Jeremy: Yeah. I love what you're bringing because it sounds like. Yoga and it's, it's true, you know, that there's so many little ways that it supports recovery.

Like you mentioned the beginning, just having the discipline to go to a yoga class and kind of the, the self-confidence that that brings of, Hey, look like I'm doing something that's good for myself. Yeah. That already is like a support of saying, oh, okay, I can do difficult things. I can mm-hmm. I can nurture myself.

Um, The time with yourself, you know, the self-awareness that that brings. Mm-hmm. Just having some time to be with your own thoughts. Mm-hmm. Even if it's difficult, rather than the chaos of getting lost in, in distraction. Mm-hmm. And then also like the movement, the physical aspect of how beneficial exercise is.

And then the breath. It's funny cuz there's so many ways that these things support our recovery, but they're, they're all intertwined also. Yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. It's all intertwined. And then you meet community there, like you, it begins to feel, you know, it's, there's just, there's really, yeah, there's, there's a lot there.

And then whenever you go deeper, you go past the Asana, you begin to look at the philosophy and hopefully teachers mm-hmm. That are, are putting, that are weaving that through, um, and begin to, it's a self-inquiry. You know, what does, you know, how, how do you treat yourself? How are you speaking to yourself?

What's the, you know, what's the proclivity of your mind? Yeah. What is, you know, there's a zillion different, you know, ways, ways to go with it. And, um, and then that brings you to something else, and then that brings you to something else and that, you know, it's. The self inquiry, the self discovery, just the cu allowing the curiosity to, to build.

Um, especially coming from somewhere where you're so like this, like I never thought that I would not be always thinking about how to get something. How to get more of something, how to not smell like it. How to be sure that nobody knew how to get rid of the bottles, how to not make 'em clank in my purse.

How to not, you know, where did I leave my car? Like whatever. Yeah. What lie did I tell? Like I, it was all consuming. There was no opportunity to think about anything else. So I come into, eventually come into this practice where I'm getting curious about my breath. I have space for that. But then slowly I do, and then like, you know, curiosity as well, being a component of ventral, which is the, uh, the part of our nervous system that is cool, calm, and collected.

We can't be curious when we're in hyper arousal. We can't be curious when we're hyper stressed. So that as well just curiosity allows us to dip our toes into, um, calm, you know. Yeah. People. And then as that builds, whether it's check in with your breath or whether it's like. How do you treat your pain? You know, or how do you, how often do you tell the truth or you know, whatever the inquiry is, it curiosity, being able to listen and ask and answer those questions that in itself bring us into a calm state.

Like it all works together. 

Jeremy: Totally. It's one of the. The biggest tools that I have for people when, you know, when they're getting hooked or hijacked by a state of lust. You know, a lot of the work around porn addictions like, okay, what do I do when I'm triggered, when I'm in this state of like wanting to act out?

Um, and curiosity, because just as you said, you know, it's so beautiful. You can't be in a state of curiosity and simultaneously in a state of like craving or, you know, Lust or whatever it is that you're then one of these unhealthy kind of, uh, mindsets. Yeah. And curiosity. The moment you drop into genuine curiosity, like what does this feel like?

Mm, well what is this and what's going on in my body? It's just an immediate kind of unhooking from that train that's taking you nowhere good. You know? Yes. Um, absolutely. So I love that. 

Cole: Yeah, absolutely. Have you heard of the, the eight Cs in ifs? No, this, this similar to like polyvagal theory or internal family systems.

Um, Dick Schwartz says the eight Cs to bring you into self energy, which is essentially like the same as like gr uh, ventral energy with, um, polyvagal theory. It's like curio curiosity, calmness, confidence, compassion, creativity. Um, Connectedness and courage I think. But these are all these little things that kinda identified.

It's helpful to remember that can help you bring you back. They're all signs of that state, but they can also help bring you back into it if you realize that you're out. Yeah. I'm like feeling frenetic and I'm like, okay, can I do something creative? Can I dance? Can I draw something? Can I get curious? Can I connect with somebody?

But anyway, those are just some really some nice little pillars like to remember. 

Jeremy: So, Yeah. And I love that all these eight Cs, they're all, you know, this is something that you kind of mentioned also, but there's so much like joy and happiness and like, uh, Ways of living that are just beautiful. And when you're stuck in your addiction, you think that acting out when your addiction, like drinking, doing drugs, looking at porn, is gonna bring you happiness.

Mm-hmm. And that's just kind of the paradigm you live in. And you know, a big shift for me was realizing like, oh, you know, just, you know, Having a lot more pleasure wasn't actually bringing me the fulfillment that I wanted. And there's all these other things like connection, curiosity, compassion, contentment, all these things that actually make you feel, it's like what you're really looking for.

Yeah. And when you're stuck in that addiction, You don't know that there's this whole other world of things of inner peace and inner joy and inner fulfillment. You just think, well, my happiness has to come with just more pleasure and more distraction and more excitement. Mm-hmm. But it doesn't work.

Mm-hmm. 

Cole: No. No. There's no sustainability. There's no sustainability. But it's so hard. It's like, What are you not seeing? Because you're seeing what you're seeing. It's like, how do you shift? It's like, this is, yeah, this is what I'm looking at. Like how do I, how do I know something I don't have language for?

Like, that's how I really felt. Yeah. It's like, uh, you know, looking back on it, people ask me sometimes like, you know, what would've worked? And I'm like, I don't think anything. Like, I don't think, I don't know. I don't, no one could have just like said something to me like I'd been told everything. Like, I don't think that there was anything that like could have shifted.

It's like how I, my own, my paradigm needed to be rattled enough. Yeah. I could see from a different angle because I was stuck seeing the only thing that I was seeing and I couldn't, I didn't have any language for anything else, even if you told me Yeah. What it looked like over here, I was like, Uh, it didn't compute.

I wasn't like actively looking at it and saying, nah, stay here. It's like, I didn't even like realize. Yeah. It didn't make any sense. I thought recovery was gonna be horrible. Oh my God. Oh, I so didn't want it. I so, so didn't want it. 

Jeremy: Like, oh, look at these boring people that don't have any fun like bird.

It's gonna be 

Cole: horrible. Birdwatching them over there, bird watch, but it's like, we don't know. 

Jeremy: And Yeah. And our society sells us the opposite. You know, our society tells us like, Hey, go to clubs, get drunk, have parties, you know, live kind of a rockstar life and that that will make you happy. And then we look at people who are sitting in bird watching and we think those losers, you know, they don't know what's up.

And then you experience it and you're like, oh wait, this is actually way more fulfilling and feels way better. And it's, it's just hard because there's so many forces that are pushing us in the other direction. 

Cole: Oh, so much. Yeah, so much. It's really against the stream. Like you're really having to go stream of not only like culture and the, the stories that we've been sold, the stories that we've told ourselves, but also against our, you know, our wiring.

Our, 

Jeremy: our physiology, our, our, our evolutionary biology. Totally. It's not really 

Cole: mean. This is not set up for us. It's set up for all, not at all what it does, at what it was designed to do, but unfortunately it's not designed to, you know? 

Jeremy: Right. Our survival mechanisms for tens of thousands or millions of years have been moved towards pleasure and run away from anything unpleasant.

Yep. And it's, and that's, you know, for me, what I love so much about like the posana practice and, and why the Buddhist kind of path really spoke to me was I, I recognized that so much of my strategy for life when I was stuck in my addiction was just more pleasure all the time. And run away from pain.

Like just whenever pain is there, run away from it. And whenever you see something pleasant, grab ahold of it and just try to, you know, I was addicted to junk food, porn, video games, all the kind of mm-hmm. Goofy stuff that young boys are into. Yeah. And what's so beautiful to me about Vipasana practice, and this is true in kind of all the spiritual traditions, it's like, This practice of being with things as they are.

You know, it's like, can you be with unpleasant? Can you, can you experience boredom? And instead of running away to your phone, can you just be like, oh, this is boredom. Mm. It's not pleasant, but it's okay. You know? It's like, I don't need to run away from this. Um, Or can you experience something pleasurable?

Like, can you see something pleasurable without chasing after it and just say, oh, that's, that's pleasurable, but I don't need to run after it. I don't need to grasp it. You know? Um, and there's so much peace in that, you know, just letting, not chasing after pleasant all the time. 

Cole: Absolutely. And I think, but I, I, I think for me, what allowed me to.

Sit with that and to accept that was to realize that because there was pain, because there was unpleasant, didn't mean there was anything wrong. Yeah, yeah. Because I associated anything unpleasant with wrong. This is wrong. I'm wrong. The world is wrong. You're wrong. Everything is wrong. So there needs to be a solution, but really to be like to, to really understand of like, this is an eight part of life and you're not doing anything wrong.

Because it hurts sometimes. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like, oh. Oh, like what if there wasn't a problem right now? What if there was this problem, what it was Right now there's, and it's gonna change. There's 

Jeremy: this, uh, there's some meditation teacher, I forget his name. He's in the kind of invite tradition, but he is like a modern teacher.

Um, and he has this one self-inquiry question that he kind of drops in sometimes to meditations and. I remember, like I'm not super into the invite to tradition. It just doesn't really speak to me that much. Mm-hmm. Um, but I remember this question was, it's so beautiful and it's just when you're meditating to drop in this question of what would be here if there was nothing to fix.

Hmm mm-hmm. And it's just like, oh yeah, if there's, if there's nothing I need to fix, What would be here? And it's like, oh, I don't need to fix. Cuz so much of our lives is like, I need to fix this, I need to fix that. You know, and it's mm-hmm. Like, Hey, what if, what if there wasn't anything to fix? And it's just a shift in perspective.

That's so liberating. It's 

Cole: so liberating. I love that. I love that. And yeah, I hear, I hear that sometimes Tara Bros will throw that in every once in a while. Like, what if there wasn't. A problem, like just set it aside just for a second and see what it feels like. Yeah. And my whole system. Yeah. Wow. Like just imagine Yeah.

That there wasn't just, imagine like that thing you're worried about, like you just weren't like, it's an option. Just try it on like, oh my 

Jeremy: god. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's wild. But it's a muscle we have to build. It's, it's hard to be with those things that are unpleasant and not fix them. Oh yeah. 

Cole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I hope that we're not making it sound to anyone like, it's like that. Yeah. It's, it's, it's simple, not easy. It's not just a choice, like, 

Jeremy: oh yeah. 

Cole: Oh, no, no, no. It's not just a choice. And it's simple, not easy to take another AA cliche. That's so true. Um, mm. But it's a practice of like, oh, you know, you just continuing to remember, continuing to, you know, return to that.

It's an option. You know, to stay. 

Jeremy: What would, yeah, I'm just curious, you know, like if you were to give some, not advice cuz advice is always, um, not helpful. What would you think would be helpful for someone starting out on their recovery journey? Like let's say somebody's listening to this and they're dealing with some addiction, might be porn, might be junk food.

You know, aside from the things we've said already, is there anything else that you think would be really helpful? Hmm.

Cole: Two things came to mind. One, one thing, this quote by Parker Palmer. He says, we have to learn as many ways as we can to talk to ourselves. Hmm. And I think that that's really beautiful and really pertinent in terms of finding different ways to engage with yourself. Um, like journaling. Like who are you when you're in nature?

Who are you, when you're in movement? Who are you when you're in stillness? Who are you when you are with community? Like to find as many ways as you can to explore different avenues of you. Um, Trying new things, putting yourself in a different scenario. It's really important, I think, that we can surprise ourselves because, um, it just reminds us that like, oh, this is so malleable.

This whole experience of me is so malleable. So it's so changeable, which I think that is, uh, really forgotten. And the other thing is, what I normally say is that just to leave room for possibility, because there's so much. That you're blinded from, and not like in a shitty way, but it's like there's, there's so much that I can't see right now.

Like I'm excited to know what I'm into in a couple years cause that I don't even like, haven't even heard of yet. Like leave room for possibility. Like I would've sold myself short. Had somebody asked me, been like, tell me your dreams. What do you wanna do? I would've so sold myself short. I would, ugh. It's just, I can't believe my life now.

Like the space that has opened and the freedom that has. That has, um, that has been created and cultivated. I just wouldn't, I wouldn't have had words for, like, I didn't have language for it. And so just to leave room to surprise yourself. Hmm. But yeah, it's malleable. It's malleable. It's shiftable and there's just, you can't see the full picture.

Jeremy: Hmm. Like change is possible. Yeah. To, to keep that hope alive, that like, oh, like I can do this. And who knows where it leads, but it's something beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I also like what you said about making more time, or I guess what Parker Palmer said about making more time to speak to yourself or something like that.

Um, yeah. As many, there's so much of addiction, 

Cole: as many as you can of talking to yourself. We must many ways as we can, 

Jeremy: Yeah. And I think what's interesting about that is one way of looking at addiction is it's, it's a way of running away from ourself. It's like anything we can do to run away from ourself to escape.

Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be with myself in this moment. Um, yeah. What so. A question that I like to ask myself, um, and I'm very curious to ask you, is, is there anything that you've changed your mind about in recovery over the past decade? Like something that you used to really be like, oh yeah, this is, this is what I believe in about recovery, but you've kind of shifted how you feel.

Mm.

Cole: I think that uh, well I guess for, for one, like the disease model, I really believed in the disease model cuz that's what was taught to me. And then that also made it feel like, oh good, I have a disease pretty good. Um, to it being, you know, more, uh, developmental, well I still think it's very, very layered. I think it's very, very layered.

I think Go Mate says like, I. There's likely a lot of genetic component, but it really doesn't matter because we can't do anything about that piece. You know, the part that we can explore, the part that we can explore is going to be more, um, historical and environmental and, you know, mm-hmm. That component of it and that, you know, this was a solution based, it was, uh, a, uh, intelligently formulated solution based behavior that.

Didn't work out. Mm-hmm. But it 

Jeremy: did. And it did at, at some point it worked for a little bit. Yeah. And it was not sustained. And it no 

Cole: longer works. Yeah. It worked for, it worked for a time, but everything changes and it doesn't work anymore. And the pattern has been, had been struck. Mm-hmm. But that there was intelligence there rather than, um, you know, having to get over the shame of being an alcoholic than to being like, you know, just that, that whole paradigm, I think has shifted a lot.

Jeremy: Mm. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. It's beautiful. I love that Gabor mate's work, just all of the ways he approaches things. It's so compassionate and it's so human and understanding of just understanding. You know, one of my favorite quotes is when he says, Addiction is not the problem. No. The addiction was the attempt to solve the problem.

Yeah. And just really understanding that all of our addictive tendencies, it comes from our inability or like our past inability to deal with whatever pain was going on and whatever we reached out to for, you know, as the addiction was a way to kind of soothe ourself to deal with that pain that we didn't know how to deal with.

So like for you, going way back, it was the anxiety, like social anxiety as a. As a pre-teen. Mm-hmm. And it's like, oh, I don't know how to deal with this anxiety, but this alcohol makes me feel better. Mm-hmm. And it's like, so much of recovery in my book is learning how to work with your emotions, how to, you know, heal.

Mm-hmm. Kind of the distress that comes when a strong emotion comes and you want to escape that emotion. Mm-hmm. It's like, oh no, I can sit with my anxiety, I can sit with my lust and doesn't mean I'm broken, doesn't mean I'm a bad person. It's just, yeah. It's a, a response strategy. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah. Do you ever.

Uh, there's kind of two ways to ask this. Either like, do you ever kind of detour off your recovery or slip off your recovery? And then like, how do you find yourself back? Or do you ever notice addictive tendencies cropping up in other areas of your life? Mm-hmm. And how do you kind practice the self-awareness and, and micro recovery in an area that might not be, you know, about alcohol or drugs?

It might be noticing addiction with something else. I'm just curious. 

Cole: Yeah. For me, yeah. My re the way that my addiction shows, my tendency show up. Totally. Yeah, they definitely do. Um, I can find it with, it's kinda interesting when you're talking about like, you know, there always being a problem to fix. I can find my mind.

Creating problems to fix often, which I think is really interesting, which just keeps me in a state of craving, which of, of craving for things to be different than they are if I mm-hmm. Could, um, you know, lose a little bit of weight or put on a little bit of muscle here, lose a little bit of weight here, put on a little bit of muscle here, and sometimes I can get quite, um, honed in on that.

So I have to watch that. Sometimes I can get honed in on, um, body image for sure. Just in general, different things, different body image things. Um, I can sometimes do it with food and I can do it with work. So those are all different ways. Sometimes what it is, is like where I'm putting my mental capacity, like I'm putting a lot of, like, I'll notice myself, like thinking about what I'm eating a lot or like judging it.

So I have to really watch that. I'm like, no, this is not a good meal or a bad meal. Um, I don't necessarily have an eating disorder background, but when I, but I work with a lot of people who do. So when I, when I notice that I can just, it's internalized bullshit. Really. Mm-hmm. Same with, I can internalize then, um, uh, sexualization of whether this is a good body or a bad body.

Like how is my, mm-hmm. You know, how is my body perceived, the cultural, sexual norm or whatever. I have to be like, oh, I am. Internalizing that like, ah, I have to watch that. And then the work thing is that I get a lot of dopamine from, I think I get a lot of dopamine from planning. Mm. Um, and I plan yoga retreats and yoga teacher trainings.

And a lot of my work is in the future getting ready for something. Mm-hmm. So I can be, that can really take up a lot of my mental space. So those things can take up a lot of mental space. So I have to watch all of that. Yeah. Technology as well has been a big thing of just noticing my thumb. I'm not connected to my thumb.

It's like a marionette doll. You like dress it up, like, ah, why is it keep going back to Instagram, like without my consent. Yeah. Serious thing, I mean. 

Jeremy: That's, that's one that a lot of our listeners will resonate, you know? Cause Instagram, social media addiction is so, there's so much overlap with porn addiction and social media addiction and just kind of the compulsive nature of being on the phone.

The dopamine hits that it gives us the, the sense of escape. Um, and it's so ingrained in our society. 

Cole: It's so ingrained, and I think it's really interesting. Now we would have like a broader conversation about addiction, about like, you know, sex addiction, alcoholism, drug addiction. It's quite colorful. It's more obvious, you know what I mean?

Like it's more, it's more obvious to you. Mine was more obvious to most people around me, but you go anywhere and everyone's got their phone. Like we're all doing it, we're all riding, surfing the same pathways. But a lot of people wanna be like, no, you have an addiction. That's an addiction, but it's all on the same circuitry.

And I heard something the other day, which I thought was really interesting, uh, reading this book called Stealing Fire. I dunno if you've heard of that from Jamie Wheel 

Jeremy: Sounds, sounds familiar. Yeah. 

Cole: He, um, anyway, he talks about that the circuitry for, um, the same part of our brain that really like shopping.

People who have shopping addiction. It's the exact same circuit is self-help. I'm gonna be that if only, if only I buy this thing, then I'll be happy. If only I get more spiritual or get this next certificate, then I'm gonna be at peace. And I'm like, oh my God. It's the same thing. And that's why it's such a big market 

Jeremy: and just, yeah, I mean, spiritual materialism, you know, the materialism of it.

It's like we're shopping around, we're, we're consumers of this. We think, you know, if I just get this, it'll make me a better person, you know? It's, yeah, there's so much overlap. I didn't, that's kind of interesting to hear, even on a neurological level. Same, same brain regions. 

Cole: Yeah. Yeah. Same brain region.

Absolutely. So, really, I mean from like the Buddhist perspective, it's like we're all, we're all on have this hungry ghost. We all are on this Yeah. Spectrum. We're all on it. So like to say that you over there and you over there, you know, it's really not fair. It's like really bringing it back to be like, what part do I have in this?

How does this show up for me? Yeah. What does my hungry ghost look like? And I'll always have a piece of it. Yeah. It's alive and well. It just, he, it shape shifts and it looks in other ways. And I think the biggest thing to do is that I check in with it and I try not. I really try to keep my bubble thin. I Mm.

Pull around me. Mm-hmm. I hope, call me on my bullshit and try to have good, you know, SGA around me to be like, am I bullshit right now? Because this is what my brain is telling me. Um, yeah. And keep it. I love that worry practice of like, I need to check myself. I know that I have very slippery tendencies. I 

Jeremy: love that.

Go ahead. Keeping your bubble thin, like I keep my bubble thin is such a beautiful mantra almost. It's like how can I make sure that I'm. That I'm not just isolating in my own paradigm of, you know, my own bullshit and self-sabotage, but how do I listen to the voices of wisdom coming in around me? Mm-hmm.

Um, And surrounding yourself with people that will call you out on your bullshit from a place of love. Yeah. Um, you know, like having a SGA or having a coach or a therapist. Um, sometimes friends can do it, but it's hard for friends to kinda mm-hmm. You know, risk the relationship and call you out. Some friends are great and they really have the courage to go there, but personally I find that's where like having a SGA or a coach or a therapist is really helpful.

Yeah. Um, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Uh, this is something actually I wanted to ask at the very beginning, but I'm just remembering now. It's, it's just a very basic question. What is addiction like? How, how do you define it? Cuz I know, as you said, now it's kind of mm-hmm. We're more aware of it, like, oh yeah, phone addiction.

Um, but I'm always curious to know how different people define it. I think I would 

Cole: define it as, you know, a behavior. It's a compulsive behavior. It's something that we're doing that we don't want to be doing. It's something that we are, that there's consequences to it and we don't want to do it, and we do it even though we say we're not going to.

So there's some component of that. 

Jeremy: Yeah. So there's consequences and then we do it even though kind of like we don't wanna do it. Yeah. We feel compelled. Yeah. Yeah. There's, 

Cole: there's a, yeah. Yeah. I couldn't. Because I think some people are like, oh, I'm addicted to this or I'm addicted to that. But it's like, you really like that thing, like, but are you having all those consequences and are you doing it even though you don't want to do it?

Not like there's a difference between, you know, ice cream addict, or are you really an ice cream addict? Are you really like binging on the ice cream even though you said you're not going to, or do you just like, like ice cream and you have it a lot, but you say, I want to have ice cream. 

Jeremy: So let me throw a curve ball question at you.

Let's say someone doesn't have an awareness of the consequences. Let's say somebody's addicted to video games. Mm-hmm. And they, they say, no, I love playing video games for 12 hours a day. Like, yeah, I want to do this. And it's having horrible negative consequences on their, their relationships, their life, their physical health, their mental health.

But they don't have the awareness that they don't, might not see the connection. Um, I'm just curious like, cuz to me that still falls under the category of addiction, but it's, there's not necessarily awareness. I'm just curious your take on that. 

Cole: Well, I think that they'd be in their bubble and I think that you don't have to be able to admit that you have an addiction.

To have an addiction. I was an addict for a really long time, but I wouldn't tell you that. Yeah. But I don't think that me self, um, I didn't need to self-disclose that in that case. Now I'm really big for self-disclosure. I want people to call themselves what they wanna call themselves, but in, in this conversation, um, if they're obvious, there was obvious negative consequences.

I. Yeah, for me, in and out of hospitals, in and outta jails, in and out of rehabs, and I'm like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Then it's like, no, no, you're not. But I think that that's where often we have a big problem. So I was just a special case to where the whole life behind me was blowing up in smoke and I was still like, oh, I'm good.

So I actually think. Eventually I, I came aware of that and I'm like, okay, okay. Like, I've just blown up my world. Okay. But so many people, people with a phone, people with maybe work, uh, people with, um, people who are not, um, maybe. That are, are drinking, that are having negative consequences, but it doesn't look like a fucking time bomb.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I have so much, so much props for people who can say, this isn't working for me, and stop. Mm-hmm. Without having it, the whole life, having to blow up. And I think it's really hard. Yeah. Cuz I wouldn't have never, I, I can promise this, that I would've never quit drinking had I not had to. Yeah. I don't think I would've.

So I think that so many people don't know. That there's Yeah, negative consequences and they don't know because we call addiction this one thing. We don't call it. These other things. I don't wanna be a addict or I don't, I don't like that word cuz that's for these people who live under the bridge and it's like, I almost feel like we need to like reclaim this word.

Jeremy: Totally. It's, it's one of my biggest pet peeves that there are people in this industry that are like, oh, you can't be addicted to porn. And I'm like, are you like, are you insane? They're, they're like, like, oh, it has to be a substance and you have to have these kind of withdrawal symptoms and there's just this such a clinical, they hide behind this barrier of like, oh, That has to be this very clinical definition, and it's like, no, it's like addiction is when we're doing things that are harming us and, and we keep doing it despite those consequences.

Cole: And withdrawal can also look different, though. Withdrawal doesn't need to look like, you know, a physical withdrawal, but you, I, I bet that you have anxiety. I. I bet that there's things that happen. Oh, yeah. When you're not getting the fix that you need, regardless. Yeah. What it is of whether I'm like twitching to like answer my email or something, or you know, whatever it is.

Like there are adverse consequences. Yeah. Wouldn't continue to do it because so often I think Ab Matee says this, I won't say it as eloquent as he does, is that so often we're not trying to get high, is that we're just trying to stave off the pain of withdrawal. And that is not just for substance. I just don't wanna feel like this anymore.

Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, totally. I love what you said also about like props to the people who. Aren't like in the depths of a dark hole addiction. Mm-hmm. But they, they're kind of, they're like, Hey, this isn't supporting my life. Cuz it's like, rock bottom is a, a great launching pad for recovery. Like when you hit rock bottom, you know that's a great launching pad.

Mm-hmm. But it's so much easier to not wait until you hit rock bottom. Like if you can. Really get that awareness and start your recovery before you get to rock bottom. You have so much, so much more, so many more resources, um, absolutely. To build that recovery off of. But it's difficult cause it's 

Cole: hard.

Cause also people are like, oh, what are you talking about? You don't have a problem. Oh, it's just weed. Oh, you're just, you know, yeah. Like all of that in the culture. Like we, we don't culturally support people doing something off of the norm and. Yeah, and I'm just so happy for, you know, I know the substance recovery movement in the States is becoming, it's becoming like cool, like there's like more, there's like all of these non-alcoholic drinks.

Like I just can't even imagine. Like, I've always drank my kombucha from wine glasses, like for the last 10 years, Uhhuh 10 years sober. So I'm like kind of way back before now, you know, kombucha's like $3 a bottle, but you buy non-alcoholic sparkling drink or whatever and it's like, you know, 12, $12. Again, we're gonna turn this into a market, but.

Anyway, props. It's there. It's good. Like drink your fancy drink, do your thing. Drink it out of a wine glass. Yeah. Um, and it's cool. 

Jeremy: It does actually feel like there's a shift in our society where all of these aspects of recovery, like, like not drinking alcohol, like breaking free from porn, you know, like self-awareness in general and doing things that are healthy and supportive, uh, is becoming cool, which is fantastic.

Yeah. You know, it's like you can actually find your community and, and get resources and, yeah. And it's actually a cool thing. So 

Cole: good. It's so good. Yeah. 

Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Is there anything else you'd want, um, my audience to hear? Anybody listening to this? Any last words for people? Mm.

Cole: Yeah, I think just stay curious really. I think that curiosity is such a, It's really such a superpower in any situation. I, I still, I'm trying to figure out some way to get a tattoo that, not a cat, not, I don't want it to say curious. I'm trying to find some cool symbol for curiosity that in any situation where I'm feeling stuck, if I could be curious, even just a little bit beyond shaming or blaming or judging or whatever, like, ugh, life would be so much easier if I could like deploy curiosity.

Um, Like, ah. So practice curiosity. Eventually it becomes more reflexive. I'm still waiting for this to be like in all the situations, but it's not, but every time in hindsight, I look back and I'm like, damn, if I just would've asked a question rather than like, did that thing. Mm. But just to stay curious. Mm.

Especially now that we know that it also is supporting the nervous system, curiosity. It's like a bottom up, top down cure. Like, get it. Mm-hmm. Get it. Mm-hmm. Wonder. I wonder, isn't it interesting? Mm. Yeah. 

Jeremy: For, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Well that was a, a phenomenal conversation. I learned a lot. Um, and I just wanna thank you for sharing your story, uh, the ups and the downs.

Um, yeah. And I know that it's gonna be helpful for a lot of the, the listeners of this podcast. Um, Last question is, where can people find you? Like, you know, where would you want people to get in touch with you if they're curious to know about your amazing yoga classes on YouTube that you post millions and millions of yoga videos on?

Um, but just tell people more where they can find out about you. Yeah, you can 

Cole: find me, Cole Chance is my name, Cole Chance Yoga. Um, and that is like my Instagram, my YouTube channel, my uh, website and I run yoga teacher trainings. I run an incredible, ah, my favorite, um, recovery program called Emerge and that has people in for just all kinds of things.

It's not just substance, it's really a human inquiry curiosity program and it's deep and wide and it's brilliant. But you can find all of that at just col chance yoga.com and um, 

Jeremy: yeah. Yeah. And when is the next emerge coming out? 

Cole: I'm not sure. I'm considering September, October. And if not, um, also considering maybe doing one over the holidays, like doing a December and January, it's an eight week course.

Just cause I think that could actually be supportive for people. 

Jeremy: Yeah, well either way. So there's two dates if you're listening to this, go check out and merge cuz it, it really is a beautiful program that you're putting together. Yeah. All the info up there. Awesome. So thank you so much Cole. It's really been a pleasure.

And um, yeah, maybe I'll see you in, in Bali or Thailand sometime soon. 

Cole: Sounds good. Sounds good. Yeah. 

Jeremy: All right. All right everyone, take care. We'll see you on the next episode. Peace.